Devon TRF Group Forum

Gasgas23 · Clubman B

I dont get what the problem is.....

maggotman · Clubman A

bored ?

4 strokes are cheepr to run for lane use down to petrol alone i used to put 30 quids worth of petrol an oil in my gasser on a long day

2 strokes are more fun and cheeper to repair if it goes bang

i dont think you will find many on here that replace the piston at 60 hours or 100 on a 4 stroke

my 525 is on 9000 miles engine untouched apart from filters and valve clerance

Simmo · Expert

2T = less moving parts, easier to take apart and work on. Lighter to pick up when dropped. More nimble? FUN

4T = more to go wrong, heavier, reliable, boring, will use less andrenaline.

Ford Mondeo v Escort XR3i?

Lexus v Sierra Cosworth?

Pays your money, takes your choice, all down to preference really. If I was a newbie I wouldn't be looking to spend £2-3K on my first bike just because I could.

I spent 3K on a Triumph Daytona 600 in 2008 after 15 years not riding road bikes. By the time I crashed it I was really getting into the swing of things again. Then bought a VFR800 for 2K and was much more comfortable.

Should have spent 1K max to get back into road bikes first. Live and learn.

-- Edited by Simmo on Tuesday 19th of February 2013 01:07:44 PM

kevdoyle · Clubman B

maggotman wrote:
bored ?

4 strokes are cheepr to run for lane use down to petrol alone i used to put 30 quids worth of petrol an oil in my gasser on a long day

2 strokes are more fun and cheeper to repair if it goes bang

i dont think you will find many on here that replace the piston at 60 hours or 100 on a 4 stroke

my 525 is on 9000 miles engine untouched apart from filters and valve clerance

agree with robin, never replaced a 4t piston, oil & filter change every 3 months, clean air filter if it needs it, spray it with wd40 after a ride, have it fully serviced and valves checked at mot time ( just had all this done plus a new rear tyre , wheel bearing, horn ( not through my choice),full service,valves, mot , £230 , think 2 & 4 strokes are down to personal choice

RichT4 · Champion

I think extreme enduro is closer to trials than standard enduro is, or MX for that matter so I think bike weight & 'flickability' is more important. That may be why the top riders seems to use 2 T's

I think more MX racers agree that a 4T is faster around a track than a 2T, or maybe they are easier, or maybe it's just what they are use to. MX is about being the fastest you can be and if that is on a 4T then that is the fastest bike for you.

There is a lot of propaganda about how manufacturers are trying to control the market and push everyone onto 4T's - there may be a little truth in that.
What I have noticed is that 4T's are starting to become the most common bike used on X-fighters, which was until recently a 2T strong hold - what does that tell you...

-- Edited by RichT4 on Tuesday 19th of February 2013 03:19:36 PM

Wheely · Expert

As above really - a personal choice. Go to any MX race and you'll see plenty of both types of bikes although the majority are 4Ts in the adult classes (this may also be due to the fact there is a bigger 4T selection to choose from - and some classes seem to be suited better around the 4Ts). Costs for racing either bikes will probably end up as even-stevens - one will cost you a little and often, the other more but less frequent.

Its an endless debate with no right or wrong answer.

Lost · Expert

May I add what is the state of play with what one owns or have just purchased steed there are many threads saying how much a member has spent bringing there steed up to speed /Tidy ? Buying a cheap bike can or not cost in the long run ,down poss to experience or luck ? In the end . Know me and my GG parted on sour terms great bike poss still of owned it but for other factor parts in this case and ave ? The full gasket was a lot of money forget the parts there are a lot of specific items seals etc .I have a two stroke now still spend money on it keeping it tidy but think hope it's not going to cost me as much to repair and remember its a competition machine they can last some time without machancal desaster a missed valve check on four stroke could result in a dropped heated valve and bang don't replace or check cam chain or tensioner? now put yourself in a position of a newbie !

Gasgas23 · Clubman B

But if ur looking at a racing stand point. I find it easyier to go fast on a 4t. And much less tiring.

Then sayin that all the extreme enduro boys use 2t.

Its a minefield!

Nige · Expert

RichT4 wrote:

There is a lot of propaganda about how manufacturers are trying to control the market and push everyone onto 4T's - there may be a little truth in that.
What I have noticed is that 4T's are starting to become the most common bike used on X-fighters, which was until recently a 2T strong hold - what does that tell you...

-- Edited by RichT4 on Tuesday 19th of February 2013 03:19:36 PM

Have a look here http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/CIE_2012/2013/2013_FIM_Environmental_Code.pdf

RichT4 · Champion

I don't understand what point your making with that document Nige?

Nige · Expert

There is a FIM emissions policy but it loosely points to things cant get any dirtier and that electric bikes ect should be encouraged. I honestly thought it would have said more like decreasing emission limits but it hasn't.

A lot of people think Honda are the cause of the 2stroke demise but why would they whilst at the top of the game!

wardy · Clubman A

There's a big difference between a fast club level mx racer banging off the rev limiter for. 3x 20 min races a couple of Sundays a month and somebody trial riding 9000 miles over a few years.

When it comes to cost of routine maintenance like oil modern 4t bikes take 10\50 or 10/60 fully synthetic at around £15.00 per litre and a oil filter for around £7.00, where a 2t just needs light gear oil or ATF at around a fiver, so there's a £17.00 saving every other meeting straight off.

When it comes to maintenance most people can manage a 2t top end themselves but many have to pay a mechanic to do a 4t and if the 4t goes bang it is big bucks where a 2t is usually just a piston kit and a replate.

I'm not biased in anyway as I have and race both, but the 2t is definitely the cheaper of the 2.

Gasgas23 · Clubman B

Where R U getting your 2 stroke gear oil?! I put motorex in the race bike 15 quid a go. An it gets klunky fast. I'll get 2 enduro race days out of it then it feels off.

Or maybe im just reading how the bike feels a bit wrong. always comes out come black. And I use a flush every 2 changes.

I get the big costs of a blown 4. But if you learn to do a top end on a 4 an check and adjust the valves every 15 - 20 hours. Is there much chance if it breaking? especially with a new piston and cam chain every 100 hours?

Gasgas23 · Clubman B

that last question aimed mainly at wardy as he races them.

Nige · Expert

I got ATF dextron2 in my trials bike seems to take quite a bit of abuse.

jt · Powermonger!!

yawn I'm staying out of this one....... wink

wardy · Clubman A

Gasgas23, it will feel nicer on silkolene light gear oil than the motorex, it is a bit thinner and you'll get less drag. It's readily available for 25-30 quid for a 4 litre can.

I change it about every 15 hours with no problems. Not to sure why your feels clunky after 2 rides ? What clutch are you running, I only use genuine so maybe that's the difference ?

With regards the motor failing it can happen on any bike just on a 4t it's more likely due to more moving parts, it then becomes more costly than a 2t to repair.

Gasgas23 · Clubman B

Ah ok, maybe i should switch it. Err brembo clutch, not sure on the internals.

Do you think you are faster on your 2 stroke or your 4?

wardy · Clubman A

Hydraulic fluid needs changing at least once a year or it will not feel great, you'll be shocked how dirty it gets considering it is sealed. I was actually referring to the clutch plates, there is very little aftermarket clutches that are as good as the oem, Hinson and Barnett are the only two I know are any good. Lots of bikes out there with apico or Ebc crap fitted which will feel notchy and drag more than the original.

Currently I think I'm faster on my 4t but have the potential to be faster again on the 2 t once I get it set up right

Lost · Expert

All this advice good sound experance s bottom line for me is you/me don't know what's around the corner regarding the next unexpected bill with our own steeds you may have no probs you may bump into a few ? You could try damage limitation exercise and purchase new or very well looked after second hand bike you may or may it have a struck service regem ? ,T2/T4 one thing is for sure at some point if you continue to ride trail/ enduro type machines your own both in the future or pass already you / me will do our sums and make our choice and fingers crossed its the right one for what we intend to use the bike for and there is where I keep getting it wrong well that's what I tell the wife lol

Gasgas23 · Clubman B

wardy wrote:
Hydraulic fluid needs changing at least once a year or it will not feel great, you'll be shocked how dirty it gets considering it is sealed. I was actually referring to the clutch plates, there is very little aftermarket clutches that are as good as the oem, Hinson and Barnett are the only two I know are any good. Lots of bikes out there with apico or Ebc crap fitted which will feel notchy and drag more than the original.

Currently I think I'm faster on my 4t but have the potential to be faster again on the 2 t once I get it set up right.

i did the fluid 6 months ago.

i will check the clutch!!

Set up like the suspention? I found a 4t so much less tiring to ride, traction was better, more predictable and i felt i could push harder without the bike suddenly biting me.

But i know the 2t is flat out faster. Admitidly my clutch and throttle control isnt great, but on the 250 4t i rode i could hop up onto a log an hold it on the back wheel like on my trials bike. I just cant do that on the 2t.

wardy · Clubman A

Yep suspension and engine, I've just had the head reworked to smooth it out improve the bottom end, I'm still playing about with the power valve settings to get the balance between traction and power right. I will also mod the carb to add to the mid range pull. As you might have guessed I'm a bit fussy when it comes to bike set up and like it to be the best it possibly can.

slip a long · Clubman A

2t biggrin

4t biggrin

Both have pros and cons, wish they would make 3t biggrin

wardy · Clubman A

Damn right

FBF · Clubman A

One thing thats often overlooked with a 2T is whilst the top end is easy to dismantle the bottom end is not much different in terms of transmission and rotating parts of the engine, the reality is a 2T is far more likely to need bottom end maintenance than a 4T due to the relatively poor lubrication provided by the 2T design and its high revving nature, and its pretty much the same amount of agro once the head and barrels are off on both engines.

Further more you have that extra horrible job of deklacking the exhaust quite frequently and premix 2T's have the added attraction of gumming the fuel system up if not used for long periods of time. Also piston ring failure usually ends up with a scored barrel and the little end bearings are far more likely to disintegrate as lubrication in that area is weak at best.

Granted 4T's have the added complication of the valve train but its only the need for speed that makes modern MX bikes maintenance hungry in this area due to the likes of titanuim valves and the lightweight build of components designed to keep rotating and ocillating compnent inertia as low as possible, its easy enough to make the 4T valve virtually maintenance free, a fact borne out by some car engines lasting 200k miles without any valvetrain work being necessary.

In our world of laning the 4T offers the best solution but there is no denying that 2T's are lighter, fun and for a given capacity more powerful, its just the nature of the beast really and what ticks ya boxes.

Gasgas23 · Clubman B

Wardy you should come out and try my bike sometime. It was set up by a very fast rider before i got it. Id like to get someone like you on it to see what you think.

FBE makes a good point about the bottom end.

One thing that keeps coming up is the "2 strokes are more fun" I dont really understand this. Im talking racing here but mine constantly wants to kill me. Its very jumpy and edgy and i have to be 100% focused to get the best speed out of it over an enduro course, or it will (and has) caught me out.

And the few times i have been let loose on a 4 i found them more controlerable, more planted and easyier to go fast on. I also felt the 250 4t was easyier to throw around than my 250 2t. for me going fast and nailing a particular section is the most fun and i can do that better on a 4.

But i totaly agree with the rider input in much more pronounced on a 2t.

Pete · Devon's Best

Like everything else in life you get out of it what you put in.

Feeling lazy then four stroke is the one for you.

Want the satisfaction that comes with having to work harder to get more out of the machine then try a two stroke.

Modern high revving four strokes do blur the distinction between the two types of machine, but I am convinced that riding a two stroke will make you a better rider, once you learn how to get the most out of it.

More rider input is needed. Good example would be going downhill.
Four stroke technique. Leave clutch and brakes alone and hang on.
Two stroke technique. Ride brakes and keep throttle open a bit to prevent stalling, and remember to hang on.

I am convinced that poor bike setup for the rider and conditions and the use to which it is being put can make all the difference. Many a newbie has been advised on the grey wire mod/free flow exhaust/power up tweaks an experienced rider would enjoy the benefit of, only to find they lack the ability to appreciate the opportunities that the machines potential performance offers, and are intimidated by it. Often people only begin to enjoy their machines when they start to trust in its abilities and then realise what it is capable of.

The 'problem' is that people don't know what they want, or what is available. At least forums like this one allow others to share experiences and give the benefit of their knowledge so people don't have to learn the hard way, by themselves.

RichT4 · Champion

Pete wrote:

Feeling lazy then four stroke is the one for you.

Want the satisfaction that comes with having to work harder to get more out of the machine then try a two stroke.

Modern high revving four strokes do blur the distinction between the two types of machine, but I am convinced that riding a two stroke will make you a better rider, once you learn how to get the most out of it.

It rolls me up when I hear or read that, like running with a heavy back pack will make you stronger but if you want to run fast or long then don't take the back pack.

If what you're saying is a 2 stroke is harder to ride but once you've master it you'll be just as good then why bother, just ride a 4 stroke and enjoy being better and honing your skill?

Also I wouldn't exactly discribe any form of competative motorcycling lazy whether it be on a 2t or 4t.

2 stroke engines do not have as friendly power delivery and lack the engine braking of 4 strokes so if the lighter weight is not enough of an advantage then why bother putting up with it's short comings?

Also a side effect of all the extra rotating mass in a 4 stroke engine it actually makes the bike handle better.

RichT4 · Champion

Pete wrote:
You have missed the point. What are you on about with back packs?
The suggestion always seems to be that riding a 2 stroke is harder but will make you better, so is running with a heavy back pack (some do it for fitness training). The point I'm making is that unless there is any actual gain after all this extra training then why bother? If your just as fast on a 4T without having relearn then why not just carry on with a 4 stroke and become even better.
Why bother? The extra rider input demanded by a two stroke can be very rewarding.
That may be true but this thread is about using the bike in a competitive manner and being faster on the track.
You are wrong about the extra weight making four strokes handle better. Much harder to change direction and more effort to expend with all that extra mass.
Nope. In track type MX racing there is something about a 4 stroke that makes it better/faster over sections like whoops. A little search on web would explain it but it's something to do with the gyroscopic effect that the extra balancing shafts (& stuff) in the engine have on the bike as a whole. This effect probably makes a 4 stroke bike less flickable but that doesn't appear to be a handicap on the MX track, or maybe it's just that riders have got use to it and it makes 2 strokes feel too different.
Who mentioned competitive motorcycling?
The OP did, this thread is about the different between them when used in racing.
If I want a lazy ride a four stroke fits the bill, and conversely if I want to play I get better thrills on the two stroke.
That appears to be the common view for green lane riding it seems.
I want both in the garage so I can choose which to ride according to my mood on the day. Horses for courses.
I do also but don't have space.

Answers above Pete. wink

-- Edited by RichT4 on Thursday 21st of February 2013 09:52:36 AM

Pete · Devon's Best

RichT4 wrote:
Pete wrote:

Feeling lazy then four stroke is the one for you.

Want the satisfaction that comes with having to work harder to get more out of the machine then try a two stroke.

Modern high revving four strokes do blur the distinction between the two types of machine, but I am convinced that riding a two stroke will make you a better rider, once you learn how to get the most out of it.

It rolls me up when I hear or read that, like running with a heavy back pack will make you stronger but if you want to run fast or long then don't take the back pack.
If what you're saying is a 2 stroke is harder to ride but once you've master it you'll be just as good then why bother, just ride a 4 stroke and enjoy being better and honing your skill?
Also I wouldn't exactly discribe any form of competative motorcycling lazy whether it be on a 2t or 4t.
2 stroke engines do not have as friendly power delivery and lack the engine braking of 4 strokes so if the lighter weight is not enough of an advantage then why bother putting up with it's short comings?
Also a side effect of all the extra rotating mass in a 4 stroke engine it actually makes the bike handle better.

You have missed the point. What are you on about with back packs?

Why bother? The extra rider input demanded by a two stroke can be very rewarding.

You are wrong about the extra weight making four strokes handle better. Much harder to change direction and more effort to expend with all that extra mass.

Who mentioned competitive motorcycling? If I want a lazy ride a four stroke fits the bill, and conversely if I want to play I get better thrills on the two stroke.

I want both in the garage so I can choose which to ride according to my mood on the day. Horses for courses.

Wheely · Expert

2T definately has the grin factor for me. Not saying I'm faster on my 200EXC than I was on my WRs (nor should I be trying to go fast on them there lanes smile ) -- however you get a buzz and a thrill from the 2T powerband that the 4T couldnt ever give. It is harder work (so less lazy) on the 2T as one minor blip on the throttle at the wrong moment will see yourself on the floor before you know it (check out Ben's video he posted if ya dont believe that). You dont get this mad reaction with a 4T. I think therefore that is the difference between this so called laziness argument.

I also found on my 4T because of the extra weight, if I got a wrong line near the start of a shortish lane, I would often never get back on the right track. With my baby 2T its more like a mountain bike and a quick nudge and its back on the right lines again (some following me would say I rarely take the right line).

I think there are 2 parrallel paths in this debate though as the majority that have replied are speaking from laning experience. For racing, as Gasgas23 suggests, the 2T may not be such a fun bike anymore.

Johnnyboxer · Clubman B

I spent a while watching 2T's and 4T's at a Trial, last Sunday

One section was up through some trees in a wooded quarry, at the bottom of the bank and then snick it up to 3rd and up a long, loose 1:2 bank of about 80m

I tried the section on my 4T Trials bike and got 3/4's of the way up the bank, before baling out because I ran out of grip and forward motion - despite giving it the berries

I saw another couple of 4T's doing it (Mont/Honda's and Beta) and they all failed half or 3/4's the way, even with expert riders

All the 2T trials bikes (Beta/GasGas/Sherco) flew up with little effort and if they did 'spin-out', all they did was pull in the clutch, give it some more throttle and dump the cluch and the inertia took them over the top of the bank to clean it

Made interesting watching and a few lessons learnt

Modern 4T's with high revving short skirt pistons seem to spin out too easily and thus loose grip, negating the perceived thinking that a 4T 'thumps' and provides more grip - modern 4T's don't

A traditional thumper like a XR or DR, doesn't rev anything like as high as a modern 4T, so just lollops along finding tremendous grip at low revs, in a traditional way

Some how modern 4T's seem to have lost the perceived advantages of a 4T - GRIP and seem only ok for graded MX tracks

Gasgas23 · Clubman B

I agree but enduro 4t spin alot less due to the power delivery.

although, as i always forget, alot of that is about tyres, surface, pressures, riding technique (weight on the outside footpeg in corners) etc. and throttle control.

RichT4 · Champion

Johnnyboxer wrote:
I spent a while watching 2T's and 4T's at a Trial, last Sunday

One section was up through some trees in a wooded quarry, at the bottom of the bank and then snick it up to 3rd and up a long, loose 1:2 bank of about 80m

I tried the section on my 4T Trials bike and got 3/4's of the way up the bank, before baling out because I ran out of grip and forward motion - despite giving it the berries

I saw another couple of 4T's doing it (Mont/Honda's and Beta) and they all failed half or 3/4's the way, even with expert riders

All the 2T trials bikes (Beta/GasGas/Sherco) flew up with little effort and if they did 'spin-out', all they did was pull in the clutch, give it some more throttle and dump the cluch and the inertia took them over the top of the bank to clean it

Made interesting watching and a few lessons learnt

I did a similar thing a couple of years ago at a climb on the Moor to Sea. I discounted both 2 stroke & 4 stroke trials type bikes as they mostly got up there, so instead focused on modern enduro bikes. At the front several KTM's came through and one thing that surprised me was more of 2 strokes made it up than did the 4 strokes. It could just be that the 2 stroke riders where better or maybe it was that the 2 stroke bikes are better at climbing. Eitherway it surprised me.

Maybe the 'fire every stroke but have less torque' is a good thing for a hill climb...

Johnnyboxer · Clubman B

Gasgas23 wrote:
I agree but enduro 4t spin alot less due to the power delivery.

although, as i always forget, alot of that is about tyres, surface, pressures, riding technique (weight on the outside footpeg in corners) etc. and throttle control.

I don't think modern 4T's spin less, due to their high revving nature (comparatively to a longstroke thumper)

Looking at Trials bikes, which are further at the 'less spin' spectrum, the 2T's definitely 'grip' better than 4T bikes

Last year on the T2T, I got stuck behind a rider on Tally-Ho who was spinning like buggery on a new Husky TE449, he could get no traction whatsoever and after, getting alongside him, I just chugged past him on the old XR250R (we were both on Enduro rears, not MT43's), slow but steady - so did the Serows etc

Gasgas23 · Clubman B

Johnnyboxer wrote:
Gasgas23 wrote:
I agree but enduro 4t spin alot less due to the power delivery.

although, as i always forget, alot of that is about tyres, surface, pressures, riding technique (weight on the outside footpeg in corners) etc. and throttle control.
I don't think modern 4T's spin less, due to their high revving nature (comparatively to a longstroke thumper)
Looking at Trials bikes, which are further at the 'less spin' spectrum, the 2T's definitely 'grip' better than 4T bikes
Last year on the T2T, I got stuck behind a rider on Tally-Ho who was spinning like buggery on a new Husky TE449, he could get no traction whatsoever and after, getting alongside him, I just chugged past him on the old XR250R (we were both on Enduro rears, not MT43's), slow but steady - so did the Serows etc

Remember we are talking race bikes. i have no doubt an xr will chug through alot of slippery places lightweight, fast race bikes will slip.

But when were talking a racing 250 2t and a racing 4t. The 4 doesnt spin half as much as the 2t. The "hit", when the power really kicks in causes the bike to loose traction.

Ive herd alot about people trying to loose the "hit" and smooth their power out so they dont get caught out on corners and tricky sections.

Im pretty sure ive managed the almost get rid of the hit on my ktm 2t, but only by having the sx power valve set up and bringing the hit down so low you get past it quick and tend to stay above it. But it makes a dam hard bike to ride fast.

The ultimate goal is like wardy says, trying to get the balance between traction and power.

wardy · Clubman A

Rich, is your bike an 07 250 exc ?

If it is try this

35 pilot, z needle 3rd clip, 165 main, a/s1.75 out

Yellow power valve spring, brass screw wound out flush with casing.

that should make it pretty much spot on, smooth and powerfull.

Gasgas23 · Clubman B

Yes it is. Ah cheers mate!!!

im putting a piston kit in it on sat so ill take the carb out and do that!!

Not sure whats in the carb currently. i know it was modded by the last owner but i cant remember off the top of my head what its set at.

it currently red powervalve spring and brass out just past flush.

Is your 2t an sx??

wardy · Clubman A

No it's a 2012 150xc with a 2012 200xc engine

Gasgas23 · Clubman B

The xc range look awesome. Proper gncc bikes!