Devon TRF Group Forum

D13dkt · Clubman A

Pros and cons of 4 and 2stroke for greenlaining

Biff · Expert

Had 4 strokes - XR250 (great bike) GasGas FSE450 (not so good) .
Killed both and got a GasGas EC300 , good power, massive low down grunt, light , and cheap maintenance, no valves / cams / shims etc.

Get yourself a biggish stroker , and put a smile on your face

D13dkt · Clubman A

i have 400 4 stroke and I'm looking to get a 2 smoker as well

Harty · Devon's Best

All I'll say is, 'each to their own', personal preference at the end of the day, a bit like tyre choice.

Lost · Expert

ok my turn ! so what i think / not that anybody takes any notice mind ??? so here we go , a modern 250 T2 will do anythink in the off road enviroment as any T4 unless its distance work then the big T4 has its advantages !!! now the way ive see it is the T2 puts out twice as meny pulses as the four stroke engine general double the power compared to a T4- 250 so its nearly on par with a 450 power wise ? its lighter / more nimble by way of less engine enersure weight than a T4 ,plus it can be coxed along in slipery conditions with alot more finese than the equal powered T4 - power can by gentle or instant or lug and not stall in a high gear it has been said the modern T2 is the new T4 lol the engines can be gentle or aggresive at the turn of a screw ?

down side mixing two stroke oil extra cost of good oil ? mpg is generaly the same as a T4 450 ? second hand T2 is abit of a mine feild ??? but a engine rebiuld is half that of a T4 ? your not want travel between lanes at any more than 40mph the T2 hunts and isnt at ease with excessive road speed ? the 300 can be abit of a hand full like some 450 T4s

so the discusions go on some lobby one or the other although i ride a 350 T4 i would as mentioned before go better on a T2 my TM250en was awesome recomended but on the other hand the mx engined 350 ktm is huge fun but not as easy to ride ? lost good luck with what ever you decide

D13dkt · Clubman A

im not looking to buy a bike as i already have a very pokey wr400 yam 4 stroke, I've just never ridden a 2 stroke in the lanes and was wondering what they were like as I'm thinking of getting one as well as the wr to have the best of both worlds.

russell11031967 · Devon's Best

Come on admit it we all want both, already have a 450 4 stroke and looking to buy a 250 2 smoke as when I did enduro's years ago that's all I used, at least if I'm riding one I can't breath in my own smoke biggrin smelly old things with no engine braking but twist that throttle and you need to have your wits about you smile

RichT4 · Champion

4T's are easier to ride, and I believe that goes for the MX scene too.
More 2T's seem to be in the enduro scene, probably due the bike's lighter weight, but I be surprised if they out numbered the 4T's.

In my experience 4 strokes are less maintenance than 2 strokes, yes if a 4T goes wrong big style it can cost a packet, or if you are running a full on racing machine you can expect more maintenance costs. However if you own and run a 2 stroke for any length of time you can probably expect to be diving into the engine - new piston & rings, possibly bearings as the petrol/oil lube system isn't anywhere near as good as the 4T engine lube.

2 strokes tend to eat spark plugs for some reason, and have a habit of fowling them if they aren't driven hard enough (which could leave you stranded but you should be carrying a spare). Maybe this is just certain bikes that suffer more than others but it can be trial and error to get the right spark plug heat range & then mixture to match.

I'd still like one as an alternative to my 4T but I don't think I'd have one instead off.

Enjoy your ying ding ding! wink

-- Edited by RichT4 on Friday 20th of April 2012 09:21:30 AM

Wheely · Expert

D13dkt wrote:
im not looking to buy a bike as i already have a very pokey wr400 yam 4 stroke, I've just never ridden a 2 stroke in the lanes and was wondering what they were like as I'm thinking of getting one as well as the wr to have the best of both worlds.

Your not looking to buy a bike??? You have just put your up for sale and said you're getting a 2-stroke laner confuse confuse biggrin biggrin

Maybe this thread and others changed your mind after all.

I have recently gone back to a 2-stroke after an XLR, WR250F and 2 x WR450Fs and have no regrets. So flickable and fun. As said if you were doing a long haul it wouldnt be the best option. The KTM has 6 gears and even in a 200 will road-ride around 50ish without too much fuss.

Miss my engine breaking as could go down hills pretty quick on the WRs - and now I've turned into a pussy as the 2-strokes speed starts to increase and the terrain is too slippery to brake. But getting used to it now.

delvey91 · Devon's Best

Wheely wrote:

Miss my engine breaking as could go down hills pretty quick on the WRs - and now I've turned into a pussy as the 2-strokes speed starts to increase and the terrain is too slippery to brake. But getting used to it now.

Its weird but i love going down hill on my stroker, Clutch in, lock the back wheel and brake with the front. smile

Pete · Devon's Best

delvey91 wrote:
Wheely wrote:

Miss my engine breaking as could go down hills pretty quick on the WRs - and now I've turned into a pussy as the 2-strokes speed starts to increase and the terrain is too slippery to brake. But getting used to it now.

Its weird but i love going down hill on my stroker, Clutch in, lock the back wheel and brake with the front.

Downhill two stroke style: Leave clutch alone (select correct gear beforehand, you are not in control when free wheeling), use mainly front brake, keep throttle on to prevent stalling and balance speed with brakes. Easy. Only use the back brake alone for very low speed stuff and remember that if you lock the back wheel you are not in control and have less options.

Precious few two stroke trail bikes available these days, plenty of motox/enduro machines with number plates but don't be fooled. Premix is a pain in the arse on them and they lack the road going kit you would expect on a trail bike. Get a CRM/KDX/(older)KTM with an oil pump and a sensible tank range designed for more than just a race.

I do like having the choice between 4/2 stroke depending upon mood. Same tyres last 4000miles/4t and 2500miles/2t. 80mpg v's 50mpg. Two stroke requires more rider input so if you are lazy or like to feel less involved go for four. Less weight to pick up with two, and better power to weight ratio means being less likely to have to pick it up. Downside of lack of electric start is out weighed by the ease of kicking over less mechanical parts. More environmentally friendly two strokes too because all engine oil is burned, rather than dumped at oil changes like four stroke machines. Biff already mentioned the cheap maintenance due to less parts.

chrisoncbr · Expert

Some 2 strokes can be a pain on the road because of their pulsey (is there such a word?) power delivery. I love my KMX because of the soft power pick up on mud which gives great traction.

D13dkt · Clubman A

i may have the chance of swapping my 2000 wr 400 for a honda crm 250, which is one of the reasons i ask.

Mossy · Clubman B

I'm glad this came up..i've been having the very same dilemma in my mind over the past few weeks. Next year i'll be trading th DRZ in for something lighter/more focussed but unsure what yet.. Like a lot of others i'm being drawn to going orange.... possibly EXC 250 2t or EXC 400 4t. I know nothing about either but at least i've got time to research. Got a road bike too so not worried about having a 2t just for the trails.

But as Dave has adequately enquired....was curious into the pros and cons.... From what I have seen most new-ish 'trail' bikes seem to be 4t....is that significant from a performance/maintenance side of things or is more an issue of emissions etc?

doug9270 · Powermonger!!

Modern 4T Enduro's are race machines full stop and require lots of money to keep them that way. Modern 2T technology has not change much in decades as the formulae works with adjustable powervalves and lower maintainance costs its a no brainer. I will agree that the 2T is not good for long distance road work.

doug9270 · Powermonger!!

How often do you change the oil in your DRZ ? My Husky 2T does not eat plugs nor does JT's KTM so your argument is wrong there and when was the last time you owned a 2T ?

I have nothing against 4T as i own one so i have the best of both worlds.

This is mine:

Pete · Devon's Best

D13dkt wrote:
i may have the chance of swapping my 2000 wr 400 for a honda crm 250, which is one of the reasons i ask.

You will not regret it. The CRM is a consummate green laning machine with oh so many little touches that make it very convenient. Four tankfuls of petrol to one oil tank means 400 miles between top ups. It's road manners are not bad enough to put me off a 50 miles ride to the start of a days laning, and a decently comfortable seat to enjoy a long days riding without suffering unduely. Good spares backup still and a CRM forum for help and advice. An electric start button would be nice but otherwise I cannot think of anything to detract from the pleasure of ownership.

RichT4 · Champion

doug9270 wrote:
How often do you change the oil in your DRZ ? My Husky 2T does not eat plugs nor does JT's KTM so your argument is wrong there and when was the last time you owned a 2T ?
I have nothing against 4T as i own one so i have the best of both worlds.

Around about every 1000 miles - 1.7 litres. Some change more often, some change less often. The 'S' is rated to last 4,000 between changes but that is generally understood to be joke on their part. wink

My last 2 stroke was a Honda MTX200 back in the mid 90's so my personal experience in not current.

I have had friends with CRM250's who I use to ride with and I have also been exposed to many a DTRF rider on 2 strokes and base my comments of their experiences, and also from posts made on here in the technical section or just snippets from run reports.

I find a lot is made of the service cost of a 4 stroke (on here) but I can tell you in the 8 years and 8,000 miles I've owned my DRZ it has cost me very little to keep on the lanes. I have had no need to dive into the inner workings of the engine in that time, or should I expect to need to in the next 8,000 miles.

Also on a recent trip the MPG was 43 at worst and 74 at best - certainly makes for a low cost of ownership. smile

Nige · Expert

D13dkt wrote:
i may have the chance of swapping my 2000 wr 400 for a honda crm 250, which is one of the reasons i ask.

Well the CRM might even be more reliable they have been known to do 40K between rebuilds and are OK on the roads due to having a balancer shaft.

But you probaly won't see a masive weight saving .
Also seen as a bit of a classic, so should hold its value well.

jt · Powermonger!!

RichT4 wrote:

In my experience 4 strokes are less maintenance than 2 strokes, yes if a 4T goes wrong big style it can cost a packet, or if you are running a full on racing machine you can expect more maintenance costs. However if you own and run a 2 stroke for any length of time you can probably expect to be diving into the engine - new piston & rings, possibly bearings as the petrol/oil lube system isn't anywhere near as good as the 4T engine lube.

2 strokes tend to eat spark plugs for some reason, and have a habit of fowling them if they aren't driven hard enough (which could leave you stranded but you should be carrying a spare). Maybe this is just certain bikes that suffer more than others but it can be trial and error to get the right spark plug heat range & then mixture to match.

Sorry Rich your a great chap and before I had my 2T I would have made excatly the same comment...

But having swapped from 4t to 2t I can honestly say your talking bollocks - there is no comparison in the amount of mntce between my old 4t and the 2t - it's minimal - clean air Filter, drop box oil from time to time and every now and then whack in a plug.....job done!

Plugs? - in 3 years I had it oil up once....

MPG - 11 L tank = 80 miles no problems

Simple, cheap and very effective - get a 2T, but not if you want to ride across a continent wink

maggotman · Clubman A

mantanance on a 4 stroke is way less i had a ktm exc 2002 400 did 2000 miles on it it in supermoto trim flatout bashing the limiter all the time ... same as my 525 flatout everywere most of the time change the oil checked it over when i got it valves etc all good

my ktm 200 just gets used for off road once a week probaly going to put a new piston in it as its probaly been over 100 hours since ive had the bike

i think the worst thing on a 2 stokre is drowning it in rivers etc as it washes the oil out the crank and bore

most 4 jokes have electric starts so if your unfit might be of help

4 stroke more exspensive to start with even uf u do it urself could cost 800+ to fix it it goes bang

2 stroke cheper to buy exspensive to run fuel and oil cheep to fix light easy to start wouldent want to do any more than needed road work

RichT4 · Champion

Cool JT - this is all good stuff, and as I am toitering over getting one myself I'm also very interested in knowing about modern 2T's.
I like yours and based on your experience would have a KTM 250 over a GasGas.

Can I have more details please?

How many miles have you done so far?
...have you replaced the piston or rings, or do you plan to soon?

delvey91 · Devon's Best

Pete wrote:
delvey91 wrote:
Wheely wrote:

Miss my engine breaking as could go down hills pretty quick on the WRs - and now I've turned into a pussy as the 2-strokes speed starts to increase and the terrain is too slippery to brake. But getting used to it now.

Its weird but i love going down hill on my stroker, Clutch in, lock the back wheel and brake with the front.
Downhill two stroke style: Leave clutch alone (select correct gear beforehand, you are not in control when free wheeling), use mainly front brake, keep throttle on to prevent stalling and balance speed with brakes. Easy. Only use the back brake alone for very low speed stuff and remember that if you lock the back wheel you are not in control and have less options.

Hmm good two know different ways people do things! Even on roads i use the same teqniuque down hill. Obiously without locking the rear though. Never feel "out of control"

maggotman · Clubman A

ktm over gasser anyday better build not built from a bag of spare parts feel to it......

Biff · Expert

maggotman wrote:

ktm over gasser anyday better build not built from a bag of spare parts feel to it......

Had my GasGas from new, no problems / issues at all. 2 years of trouble free use, in for a top end overhaul soon for peace of mind. Maintainance is the key, basic stuff, air filter / gearbox oil .
Never had trouble with oiling spark plug, (could go into flash points of 2 stroke oil but can't be arsed).
Didn't want a " default ktm" so hence the Gas Gas.
Had a couple of Alfa"s so maybe that's why

Anyone want to buy my S2000?

KronreifTrunkenpolzMattighofen · Devon's Best

My CR250 used to burn a plug every 3-4 hrs on a track, but worth it for the "grin factor"! But the 4T is a more "lazy" bike, which means you get to enjoy the lanes / ride more. smile

But would still like a KTM300 aswell if the wife was more understanding........ cry

RichT4 · Champion

Yeh, I had several sessions over the gas stove trying to get my mates CRM250 spark plug to work again. It use to foul the plug after a few rides which would get old quickly if it was my main bike. Maybe the jetting was wrong, or the oil/mixture was wrong, or both.
Thing is, this is something you don't get with a 4 stroke.

delvey91 · Devon's Best

Never had a plug foul on a 2 stroke ever and ive had plenty.

KronreifTrunkenpolzMattighofen · Devon's Best

delvey91 wrote:
Never had a plug foul on a 2 stroke ever and ive had plenty.

#7 plugs used to foul, #9 used to burn out, so ended up using #8's and they worked fine. But it was full throttle until the tank ran dry... wink

RichT4 · Champion

My road going 2 strokes never fouled a plug.
MTX125, MTX200, RXS-100, TY-50, nor did my mates DT's, KMX's etc.

I think being smaller CC and lower state of tune you needed to push the engine harder to get anywhere - always in power band. On the highway it's easier to run the engine hard also without fear of ending you life lol.

Still, from what I'm reading most modern 2 strokes are happy to lug for some distance without needing to be cleared out so maybe it's all good now.

Harty · Devon's Best

Oh yes, one con I can think of is that they bloody stink if you end up behind one on a run for hours on end. And I don't give a monkeys if you declare that YOURS doesn't smoke!

All 2 strokers should be TEC and no further forward, bloody bad for your health evileye

jt · Powermonger!!

RichT4 wrote:
Cool JT - this is all good stuff, and as I am toitering over getting one myself I'm also very interested in knowing about modern 2T's.
I like yours and based on your experience would have a KTM 250 over a GasGas.

Can I have more details please?

How many miles have you done so far?
...have you replaced the piston or rings, or do you plan to soon?

Not sure on miles TBH I don't really look but will check tomorrow for you, but it gets ridden just about every weekend & I have had it 2 years or so. Had Dave Massam whip the top off just before Xmas as I have never done anything to it and thought it about time it was looked at - all was perfect but as it was apart I got him to whack in a piston (£200 all in) anyway.

As Doug will testify It's not often I use more than 1/3 throttle and hence maybe why there is so little wear and the MPG is good compared to others - if I was wanging it round an enduro full bore each weekend I'm sure it would be a different story....

I would not want to ride far on the road, I wouldn't want to ride it for more than 6-7 hrs, I wouldn't want to ride it to work - but for me, the lanes I ride, the distance I do It's perfect and I love it and it makes me smile every time I get on it - don't know why but it does.

Said this before - I was not a fan of 2 strokes, dirty, unreliable, thirsty etc a judgement based on my experiance from 20+ years ago. I bought this one cause it wanted something light and I 'stumbled' arcross it a bargain price so I thought i would take a gamble - now I'm a total convert.

Even my lads 50 has really impressed me compared to the stuff I used to ride that oiled up and conked out every other day - his goes like stink and it 100% reliable - 2 srokes have come a long long way in 20 years.

I can see they would not be for everyone and it depends on personal choice, but there is no doubt its easier and cheaper to maintain V and 4 T I have ever owned.....

Why a KTM? - simply that there are loads about and because of that bits are cheap and there is a good dealer just down the road.

jt · Powermonger!!

Harty wrote:
Oh yes, one con I can think of is that they bloody stink if you end up behind one on a run for hours on end. And I don't give a monkeys if you declare that YOURS doesn't smoke!
All 2 strokers should be TEC and no further forward, bloody bad for your health

No more run leading for Me N Doug then hmm

We'll just go on stroker only runs and leave you tree hugging, Ecomentalist, Victor Meldrew types to do yer own thing then biggrin

Harty · Devon's Best

jt wrote:
Harty wrote:
Oh yes, one con I can think of is that they bloody stink if you end up behind one on a run for hours on end. And I don't give a monkeys if you declare that YOURS doesn't smoke!
All 2 strokers should be TEC and no further forward, bloody bad for your health
No more run leading for Me N Doug then

We'll just go on stroker only runs and leave you tree hugging, Ecomentalist, Victor Meldrew types to do yer own thing then

Excellent lol, my rod and bait worked a treat lol

gasser · Clubman B

Whats the point, 2t or 4t, you are talking about do some lanes in Devon, it doesn't matter one bit, you're not racing, any old bike will do, 2, 4 1920's the latest KTM, no matter. Buy a bike, fall in love, hate it, what ever, move on, just ride (wish I did more) oh and you could make an offer on my TM 250 2010 2T, as eveyone says it' should be un-reliable, pain in the arse, etc etc, but loved it the last year, done green laning, marshalled enduros, raced enduros, took part in 12 hour dawn 2 dusk, ridden TRF events, but wouldn't say it was the best bike for any of these, but had fun at all... and now just fancy a change, anyone got a 300 EXC 2010 for sale, as the 250 is too slow............year right!

Pete · Devon's Best

RichT4 wrote:
Yeh, I had several sessions over the gas stove trying to get my mates CRM250 spark plug to work again. It use to foul the plug after a few rides which would get old quickly if it was my main bike. Maybe the jetting was wrong, or the oil/mixture was wrong, or both.
Thing is, this is something you don't get with a 4 stroke.

Not typical. Set up wrong by the sound of it.

I have bought three plugs for my CRM in the past decade and done 15,000 miles. They wear out eventually but I have never had to change one to get it to go.

I had to buy a plug for my four stroke last week though because I let the valve clearance close up and it started to burn out. (Still running fine so I was shocked by how worn it was when I took it out to do the clearances.) Never been a two stroke problem that.

jt · Powermonger!!

gasser wrote:
2t or 4t, you are talking about do some lanes in Devon, it doesn't matter one bit, you're not racing, any old bike will do, 2, 4 1920's the latest KTM, no matter. Buy a bike, fall in love, hate it, what ever, move on, just ride......

Spot on - good words smile

RichT4 · Champion

...but remember, the OP wasn't asking for us to thrash out the merits of both to come up with a definitive answer to which is best. He just asked for the pros & cons of each so he could make his own mind up. Just saying either is fine is hardly covering the subject.

The different riding styles that is needed with each type, the restrictions that could be imposed with regards distance road riding (dependant of model), MPG/tank range, cost of ownership and maintenance. I think it's all covered here and no conclusion has been formed so the OP can digest it all and decide for himself, then run out and buy a bike!

D13dkt · Clubman A

this has been a very interesting debate, im glad so many people have had a there say on how they feel.
i totally understand the mantenance side(ive owned 60+bikes in the last 15years) of both types of motor.
the origional post was to find out the differences between the two types of bike in a greenlaneing enviroment, not because i wanted to buy one or the other but just to know the pros and cons.(i have a 400 4 stroke)
thanks to everyone for replying.
there are some strong veiw for each type of bike, but as someone said "love it or hate it just ride it" nuff said.

gaschef · Devon's Best

How about laning a DKW with a Wankel rotary engine????

jt · Powermonger!!

RichT4 wrote:

Can I have more details please?

How many miles have you done so far?
...have you replaced the piston or rings, or do you plan to soon?

Right had a look today and in 4000 miles (200 hrs) I have fitted 2 plugs and 1 piston (£60) which was as a precaution.

Oh and 2 stands wink

Rest is just chains, sprockets and tyres - no oil filters to do and gear box oil (only about 500ml as i recall) every now and again...

Yesterday was a 50 mile ride and it used just over 5L of fuel......

Simmo · Expert

I prefer 2 strokes because they are uncomplicated and can be a bit nuts.

Like many things I'm attracted to.... biggrin