Devon TRF Group Forum

Kwaka Geoff · Clubman A

Accident location

Bob Adams · Clubman A

Out on two wheels tonight as every Wednesday in the summer, pedals, no engines, group of about 10 from Crediton. Somewhere on a lane, just out side Delvey's house I think, heading towards the Beer Engine because its not a nice evening, a retired member of the the group hit a fairly innocuous branch in the road and then the road with his head and shoulder. Following rider ran into him. He was/is in a bad way. Fortunately, one of our group is a nurse and two work at the local sports centre and are First Aid trained so we had good immediate cover.

Someone called the ambulance and we positioned people at the junction with the main Crediton Tiverton Road and the next lane junction, no ambulance. I called again. I was asked for an address, I said there is no address we are in a lane, what is the name of the lane? me, as far as I know it doesn't have a name but we will meet you at the junction of the Crediton to Tiverton road at the turning to Shobrooke. How do you spell Shobrooke, I was asked. Uh! OK lets try Newton St Cyres, How do you spell that!! I'm getting agitated now, we have a seriously injured man lying in the road and a am struggling to get this operator to look in the correct part of the country let alone the lane we are in. So the question is:-

What is the best way to direct the emergency services to a location on an unclassified road? If I carry my GPS and provide an OS Grid Ref, would that enable the ambulance to find us?

There is clearly a connection between this forum's activity and cycling as far as this question is concerned.

TTR · Powermonger!!

Sorry to hear about the accident Bob.

It may be worth you ringing Noel as he had some issues with the ambulance folk when they were needed urgently at a Haccadown Funday.

My recollection is that they told him they needed a postcode as they couldn't use OSGRs - but I could be wrong or things might have changed.

TTR

hampsterracing · Devon's Best

OS grid ref or lat long can be used.the phone operator will often have to find a supervisor to process the info but it does work.

A good point well made.

how many of us are aware of how to get or precise position from our gps units ?

Harty · Devon's Best

Sorry to hear this Bob, I hope he makes a swift recovery.

Last year when I had an accident on a lane, the guys who called, gave the operator a grid ref and a long/lat bearing off the gps, they were with me within 15 mins.

Bob Adams · Clubman A

Thanks for the quick replies folks and your sympathy. Isn't it strange how so many people view motor cycles as dangerous and bicycles safe for the whole family regardless of age, yet a totally unexpected accident with a very experienced cyclist caused by not much more than a large stick can cause so much harm! I have never seen a guy in such pain and I was with a mate riding the West of England national trial many years ago when he fell and dislocated his shoulder. I thought that was bad.

Lost · Expert

If i remember correctly as soon as you talk to the operator a dispatcher will if ave dispatch a resource to you as far as your location is concerned gps will locate your Mobil if used if you can give the nearest A or B road to the incident that can help or a near by po box address if ave thAt to may help look outs are helpfull ,advice now folks its no good asking for the air ambulance I've done that even explained who I was got a car mmm then a land base ambulance double mmmm but what I was told meny years ago Kerry if your there then the emergency is no longer a emergency mmmmm
SOS my advice try stay calm give as much info to the operator if there is a first aider present then keep it simple C cspine A airway
B breathing C circulation If nil suction ave consider the recovery position if the patient is unconcouse and remember help is coming mean time you are the help and anything you do is helping rather than stand there and just look ? Want to make difference then do a simple first aid course ?

C spine consider mechanism of injury speed forces involved
A airway try keep it clear poss finger sweep? If unconcouse roll over
B is the patient breathing shallow
Deep ? Noisy? Pass this info on
C circulation is he bleeding what can you do to stop hemerage

If all this is to much for you consider learning it you could make the difference to a friend in need ! Lost

Pete · Devon's Best

On the only occasion when I had to call an ambulance I flagged down the next car. Loading the casualty (broken leg) inside I instructed the driver to go to a pub in the nearest town. The ambulance was called and told the casualty was at the pub. The request for a postcode was predictable and useless. The wait for an ambulancew at the top of Johnny Canns walk would have been horrendous.
Makes you think. If you don't know where you are except by reference to your gps then are you ready to accept responsability for those following you?

Bob Adams · Clubman A

Pete wrote:
On the only occasion when I had to call an ambulance I flagged down the next car. Loading the casualty (broken leg) inside I instructed the driver to go to a pub in the nearest town. The ambulance was called and told the casualty was at the pub. The request for a postcode was predictable and useless. The wait for an ambulancew at the top of Johnny Canns walk would have been horrendous.
Makes you think. If you don't know where you are except by reference to your gps then are you ready to accept responsability for those following you?

Pete, our problem was that we knew exactly where we were and the local emergency services would have found us without a problem but turn right at the pink cottage and then right at the parks gate means nothing to an operator who doesn't know where Crediton is.

As for moving him, an absolute non starter. We kept him in the position where he fell. see Kerry's good advise above. The ambulance crew gave him 2 bottles of gas and a morphin injection before they could sit him upright.

devondan · Champion

I followed a bunch of cyclists on the Dartmoor classic and saw a femail rider take a hard fall over the bars and onto her head and shoulder, she was wearing a helmet but had a serious bruise around her head with 2 black eyes and couldn't move her shoulder. I tried to call an ambulance - no signal as did the next passers by, I think it was the 4th who managed to get through. The only directions we could give was to say we on the hill off the moor just before post bridge, but they got there ok. This rider came off at about 20-30 mph and other than a helmet had no protection. I'm sure there would be a market for lightweight protection for cyclists, eg thin leather gloves long cycling trousers with knee protection and similar in a top. Mountain bikers wear body armour, why not something appropriate for road cyclists?

Bob I hope you mate is ok.

willywombat · Clubman B

when I recently reported a car travelling the wrong way ( wrong side of the road ) up the A30 nr honiton the operator seemed more interested in what type of car /reg number etc than the location and what was going on! In frustration I said it's going to be pretty obvious which car it is just get someone there asap before somebody is killed.

Pete · Devon's Best

So much for the 'efficiency' of the centralised call centre.
I once spent an annoying five minutes explaining to the AA operator where Widicombe in the Moor is, and discovered along the way that there are three Widicombes in Devon. The other two are not 'in the Moor' but the idiot came close to sending a recovery vehicle firstly to Saltash and then Torbay. Without local knowledge I would have been waiting all day whilst someone toured the county looking for me in the wrong town.
I shudder to think of the consequences if someone only had a gps to rely upon.

Bob Adams · Clubman A

devondan wrote:
I followed a bunch of cyclists on the Dartmoor classic and saw a femail rider take a hard fall over the bars and onto her head and shoulder, she was wearing a helmet but had a serious bruise around her head with 2 black eyes and couldn't move her shoulder. I tried to call an ambulance - no signal as did the next passers by, I think it was the 4th who managed to get through. The only directions we could give was to say we on the hill off the moor just before post bridge, but they got there ok. This rider came off at about 20-30 mph and other than a helmet had no protection. I'm sure there would be a market for lightweight protection for cyclists, eg thin leather gloves long cycling trousers with knee protection and similar in a top. Mountain bikers wear body armour, why not something appropriate for road cyclists?

Bob I hope you mate is ok.

You could well be right on the body armour Dan. In my opinion cycling helmets are a huge compromise any way. His split clean in two but probably better he was wearing it. He had a lot of blood around his ear which was worrying but that turned out to be just a graze.

Pete · Devon's Best

Body armour for cyclists might be good for a short track stunt rider, like downhill mountain bikers (who generally use a lift to get to the top), but in the real world I can't see anyone designing something that will allow the rider's body to breath properly and not overheat. Hence all the vents on cycle helmets. Protect yourself from possible abrasions and guarantee overheating from the normal exertion of riding.
I bought six-six-one armour but found it totally impractical to wear when cycling.

devondan · Champion

I dont necessarily mean full body armour, I agree that would be impractical on long rides, but how about some kangaraoo leather and padding. If you saw the girls road rash all over her knees, elbows and finger tips you'd know what I mean. My shorts have a padded swede gusset so why not something similar on knees, shoulders and elbows? I'd give it a go!

Dan

Lost · Expert

funny not so funny most of us travel the highways and byways without so much of a thought it could one day go horrible wrong ,mean time what would we do wing it, BE PREPARED lol not meny folk are prepared for the unexpected WING IT yes we do that alot ? or let sombody else sort it ? thats a option if there is sombody else around ? so whats my advise here we go ?????? try take a deep breath if it helps try stay calm, consider your options how are you going to contact help options, try and think lateraly think whats ave to you to help him ?what can i do to help him ,reasurance keep warm, if unconcouse protect his airway poss roll him over? , be flexable ie you may need to leave the injured party to get help

this all sounds abit over the top i know and is never going to happen to you ? ahem yes most times god forbid tom dick or harry will climb back on and wobble down the road ive seen meny a trail bike outside the A/E dept but it makes you think what would could i do best advice use your common sence lost

Bob Adams · Clubman A

Lost wrote:
funny not so funny most of us travel the highways and byways without so much of a thought it could one day go horrible wrong ,mean time what would we do wing it, BE PREPARED lol not meny folk are prepared for the unexpected WING IT yes we do that alot ? or let sombody else sort it ? thats a option if there is sombody else around ? so whats my advise here we go ?????? try take a deep breath if it helps try stay calm, consider your options how are you going to contact help options, try and think lateraly think whats ave to you to help him ?what can i do to help him ,reasurance keep warm, if unconcouse protect his airway poss roll him over? , be flexable ie you may need to leave the injured party to get help

this all sounds abit over the top i know and is never going to happen to you ? ahem yes most times god forbid tom dick or harry will climb back on and wobble down the road ive seen meny a trail bike outside the A/E dept but it makes you think what would could i do best advice use your common sence lost

You're right Kerry, staying calm is essential, this was helped by the presence of an experienced nurse and 2 first aiders but do you know what else would have caught us out if we had been a long way from home? Cold. I know it was a warm summer evening but there were very heavy rain storms. We all wear hi vis jackets but they were given up to the injured man on the ground. Wet T shirts were fine while the adrenalin was pumping but after the ambulance left we had a group of very cold people. It was OK, I went to get my van which was only a couple of miles away and I keep numerous jackets and blankets in it. I was able to pick up damaged bikes and I take the nurse home because she had been kneeling beside him in the rain for over 30 mins but in addition to my GPS I will now be carrying a light weight space blanket which could have been put over the injured man and we could have kept our jackets. It could have been winter!

jacks · Expert

My son has been a "call taker" at the base at Sowton, this HQ covers scilly Isles to Bournemouth, and up to Bristol. Thats a big area. And

He says there is no "best way" to get an ambulance to a remote location, but that as soon as a call comes in an ambulance is despatched and is on its way . They can track mobile phones, but its not very accurate. They use "northings and eastings", but also if you've planned your route for the day, and have taken note of where you've been and the location of pubs, post offices etc, things that will help them identify what road you are on. I would think an awful lot depends on the experience of the operator.

Dan if you've got a "swede " in your cycling shorts I don't think thats going to help, you should replace that vegetable with some suede.

Bob Adams · Clubman A

jacks wrote:
My son has been a "call taker" at the base at Sowton, this HQ covers scilly Isles to Bournemouth, and up to Bristol. Thats a big area. And
He says there is no "best way" to get an ambulance to a remote location, but that as soon as a call comes in an ambulance is despatched and is on its way . They can track mobile phones, but its not very accurate. They use "northings and eastings", but also if you've planned your route for the day, and have taken note of where you've been and the location of pubs, post offices etc, things that will help them identify what road you are on. I would think an awful lot depends on the experience of the operator.
Dan if you've got a "swede " in your cycling shorts I don't think thats going to help, you should replace that vegetable with some suede.

It probably is a swede, worn to impress the ladies!!

devondan · Champion

I find swede's more comfortable than turnips!

I gave CPR to an elderly English lady who had a heart attack in a french service station a few years back, she came back around but sadly passed away in hospital the next day. Everyone else was just looking on, the only reason I was able to help was because I'd done first aid as part of the FA coaching course I'd been on. I'd recommend everyone does one. I also take a first aid kit with me on rides (if I don't forget!) but a space blanket would prob be a good addition.

jacks · Expert

I don't carry any tools, but I do have choccy bars and first aid kit, did a bee sting while out on thursday, savlon wipes for bramble injuries last week.

Bob Adams · Clubman A

jacks wrote:
I don't carry any tools, but I do have choccy bars and first aid kit, did a bee sting while out on thursday, savlon wipes for bramble injuries last week.

I went to Vietnam a few years ago and a pharmacist friend made up a first aid kit for which included needles and sutures. My wife fell into a barbed wire fence and cut her hand. I was really dissapointed when she wouldn't let me have a go at stitching it!

Jacks, if the ambulance service use Northings and Eastings, that suggests they can locate by OSGR. Would your son be able to get the email address for an appropriate person at the control centre who I can correspond with on this subject?

Lost · Expert

If poss put your space blanket underneath and atop of your friend ? The ground is cold if poss make like a hoddy with the space blanket as we loose a lot of heat through our noggin ?

jacks · Expert

Bob Adams wrote:
jacks wrote:
I don't carry any tools, but I do have choccy bars and first aid kit, did a bee sting while out on thursday, savlon wipes for bramble injuries last week.
I went to Vietnam a few years ago and a pharmacist friend made up a first aid kit for which included needles and sutures. My wife fell into a barbed wire fence and cut her hand. I was really dissapointed when she wouldn't let me have a go at stitching it!
Jacks, if the ambulance service use Northings and Eastings, that suggests they can locate by OSGR. Would your son be able to get the email address for an appropriate person at the control centre who I can correspond with on this subject?

I'll ask him, and pm you. Actually talking about this stuff reminds me to get arnica, also, with the way I ride a hard box for the stuff would mean that paracetomol etc would stay whole rather than crumble into powder.

Bob Adams · Clubman A

jacks wrote:
Bob Adams wrote:
jacks wrote:
I don't carry any tools, but I do have choccy bars and first aid kit, did a bee sting while out on thursday, savlon wipes for bramble injuries last week.
I went to Vietnam a few years ago and a pharmacist friend made up a first aid kit for which included needles and sutures. My wife fell into a barbed wire fence and cut her hand. I was really dissapointed when she wouldn't let me have a go at stitching it!
Jacks, if the ambulance service use Northings and Eastings, that suggests they can locate by OSGR. Would your son be able to get the email address for an appropriate person at the control centre who I can correspond with on this subject?
I'll ask him, and pm you. Actually talking about this stuff reminds me to get arnica, also, with the way I ride a hard box for the stuff would mean that paracetomol etc would stay whole rather than crumble into powder.

Thanks Jacks, by the way, whats arnica?

KronreifTrunkenpolzMattighofen · Devon's Best

Bob Adams wrote:
Thanks Jacks, by the way, whats arnica?

Arnica is brilliant stuff. It's a cream which you put on bruises to "bring the bruise out", which helps the area heal quicker.

Used to use loads of it when I played rugby. wink

Cubber · Expert

A Google search found this:-

Arnica Montana - to give it its proper name - is also known as Leopard's Bane, mountain tobacco and sneezewort. Found mainly in the mountains of Europe and in Siberia, this homeopathic remedy is made from the dried roots or sometimes the dried flowers of the plant.

As a remedy, the most popular ways of using Arnica are either as a cream, which can be used on chilblains, sprains and bruises, or as a homeopathic remedy to help encourage recovery from injury or surgery. The remedies are available as pillules, small tablets that are placed on the tongue and sucked or chewed until they dissolve.

Read more: Arnica is good for bruises | iVillage UK http://www.ivillage.co.uk/arnica-good-bruises/78789#ixzz23hm4bnMW
Parenting: Information & advice

gaschef · Devon's Best

Found a guy collapsed at the side of the road by the river between Axmouth and Seaton, Tried to get the irriot at the ambulance centre to understand I dont have a post code but there is only one road, but to no avail, Called the police in the end they didnt have a clue but eventually the fire brigade turned up on there way back from another shout and finally got through

jacks · Expert

Arnica in the little tablet form is good for shock if taken immediately after an incident.

Bob Adams · Clubman A

Thanks for everything above, including Arnica.

My pal is now at home, he had a dislocated shoulder and the two top ribs are broken which effected his breathing. Also has a bruised back where he was hit by the following bike. Not much more could be done for him in the hospital so he was sent home with a bottle of morphine.

He sounds much better today than he did last night.

He still owes £7 for last nights beer kitty.

TTR · Powermonger!!

Bob Adams wrote:
He still owes £7 for last nights beer kitty.

Lightweights

Bob Adams · Clubman A

TTR wrote:
Bob Adams wrote:
He still owes £7 for last nights beer kitty.
Lightweights

Gotta cycle home, can't risk an accident!

Pete · Devon's Best

As an aside, I recall an incident recently on the round dartmoor run when after a short wait for the following rider at a junction we turned around only to meet him coming the other way back down the road. He had stopped to help a lady who had fallen over in a car park next to her car, and who appeared to have broken her arm. He had assited her up and to her car, but she had refused his offer to call an ambulance, saying she would be ok to drive, and although he was skeptical she was insistant. I was relieved that he was ok but still wonder whether she made it home having refused the help of a passing good samaritan. Because he was following and not leading he did not actually know where they were and could not call for help without her assistance to direct the ambulance.

delvey91 · Devon's Best

Oh dear bob dangerous roads round my way. They were hedgetrimming yesterday so could of been some debris from that. How long did it take to get there in the end?

Wheely · Expert

I had to call an air ambulance in one for our new member mr D1-arch to a lane in the middle of shaldon about 5 or 6 years ago. He was leading I didn't have a clue where I was (there was only the 2 of us). But we did have os maps so I was able to give a grid reference.
Helichopper turned up 5 minutes later - I was told to stand in the adjacent field and was asked if I was wearing something bright. Luckily I don't abide by the "stealth code" so had a day glow mx top on. They soon saw me!!!! Was pretty scary as I retreated to the fields outer hedgerow & the helicopter simply followed me until I was down on the ground cowering against the barbed wire. I guess they know how difficult it is to manhandle across country and wanted to get nice and close to the casualty.
Darren opted for the "don't cut my gear off" card so whilst they entinoxed him' I had to quickly pull his boots off. Squealed he did!!
We then had to manhandle all 17stone of him over the hedgerow and into the copter.
All in a days laning!!!

Bob Adams · Clubman A

delvey91 wrote:
Oh dear bob dangerous roads round my way. They were hedgetrimming yesterday so could of been some debris from that. How long did it take to get there in the end?

That makes sense Jack, I thought the trimming was recent, it was almost certainly a cut branch that he went over. I looked at his bike today and the front forks are bent back so far, the wheel doesn't clear the frame now. The branch was no more than 20mm dia but about 800mm long and bent. I can't see how it stopped the bike dead but it certainly did. We had just turned right at Shobrooke park gate and were just before the woods on the right. He saw the branch and thought he had missed it but iy must have kicked up somehow.

Took the ambulance over 30 mins to arrive from Tiverton.

Andy KLX · Clubman B

What do you guys think of this ?
http://vimeo.com/43038579

(Link made live by TTR)

-- Edited by TTR on Friday 17th of August 2012 09:39:20 AM

TTR · Powermonger!!

Andy KLX wrote:
What do you guys think of this ?
http://vimeo.com/43038579

Wow - clever!

Bob Adams · Clubman A

Andy KLX wrote:
What do you guys think of this ?
http://vimeo.com/43038579
(Link made live by TTR)

What a clever idea, I like that!

-- Edited by TTR on Friday 17th of August 2012 09:39:20 AM

dl-arch · Clubman B

Wheely wrote:
I had to call an air ambulance in one for our new member mr D1-arch to a lane in the middle of shaldon about 5 or 6 years ago. He was leading I didn't have a clue where I was (there was only the 2 of us). But we did have os maps so I was able to give a grid reference.
Helichopper turned up 5 minutes later - I was told to stand in the adjacent field and was asked if I was wearing something bright. Luckily I don't abide by the "stealth code" so had a day glow mx top on. They soon saw me!!!! Was pretty scary as I retreated to the fields outer hedgerow & the helicopter simply followed me until I was down on the ground cowering against the barbed wire. I guess they know how difficult it is to manhandle across country and wanted to get nice and close to the casualty.
Darren opted for the "don't cut my gear off" card so whilst they entinoxed him' I had to quickly pull his boots off. Squealed he did!!
We then had to manhandle all 17stone of him over the hedgerow and into the copter.
All in a days laning!!!

cheeky bugger confuse ....I was 16 stone....then

s'funny you dont remember how much pain you are in after the event...dont remember squeeling..but probably did ashamed

Bob Adams · Clubman A

Quick update, after seeing consultant, he has 6 brocken ribs, cracked collar bone and dislocated shoulder.

No wonder he was in pain!

Pete · Devon's Best

Bob Adams wrote:
Quick update, after seeing consultant, he has 6 brocken ribs, cracked collar bone and dislocated shoulder.
No wonder he was in pain!

Ouch. I bet all his so called friends tell him every joke they ever heard now he can't afford to laugh.

Bob Adams · Clubman A

Pete wrote:
Bob Adams wrote:
Quick update, after seeing consultant, he has 6 brocken ribs, cracked collar bone and dislocated shoulder.
No wonder he was in pain!
Ouch. I bet all his so called friends tell him every joke they ever heard now he can't afford to laugh.

He won't laugh when he sees his bike!!

delvey91 · Devon's Best

Ouch thats some serious damage ! :S