Devon TRF Group Forum

maggotman · Clubman A

Whats the law with mental horses

wackyracer · Powermonger!!

Yeah first of all you did the rigth thing in your actions of switching off engine and so forth, i can also understand your frustrations too before and after the little exchange of words

Remember horses were here first long before any vehicles, most if not all the lanes/roads you ride were and sometimes still are used by horses and yes way back they use to pull carts behind them for farming purposes, which used the lanes to get from field to field, thats why most or some lanes are quite narrow as they were only used for carts and horses, i guess you probably new that smile

As far as i know the horse and rider has the right of the road but....

Here goes my bit from my own opinion with a lot of advice i've picked up through other great trail riders is

If following a horse, slow down loads so they know your there (engine running) if they need you to switch off they usually let you know, give em chance to find a pull in or turn the horse around so it can see you passing face to face, if they pass a pull in and refuse to pull over then the rule of thumb is to decrease the distance between you steadily and very slowly (kinda a gentle squeeze) if they persist in not pulling over then squeeze some more or try getting their attention without revving of engines ie shout or wave (ususally you'll find the male horse riders the worst for this)

If faced with a horse coming head on i'll always switch off regardless and mostly wait for the prompt from the horse rider, to either say come on past free wheel if down hill or start and ride very slowly past them as they like the horse to expirence a slow controlled pass with engine running, most of the time i will let the horse and rider pass with out doing anything other than staying put and talking to all (yes even horse language wink ) some find it beneficial if you take your helmets off smile

I firmly beleive you were delivered with a nasty result from your kind actions to do the rght thing, NOT all horse riders are like this as you may well know

you'll find in all walks of life no matter what sport or hobby you do there are the very odd few who are right numpties i'm just glad we don't have any in this group of great people

Well done for doing the right thing tho, shame she just went off on one

Laterz wacky smile

-- Edited by wackyracer on Sunday 9th of September 2012 08:16:22 PM

Bob Adams · Clubman A

I think you will find that the owner of any animal is responsible for its actions in a public place and is liable for damage caused. Not sure if that quite fits what happened here but if you have the time and want a read, google Mirvahedy v Henley Its a local case that I was involved with for a long time and actually makes quite interesting reading. Had another one where a dog ran across the path of a cyclist on the Granite Way at Okehampton. Same result, dog owner was liable for the injury caused when the cyclist fell off her bike.

Not quite sure how well this would stand up if it was said that the horse was spooked by a bike.

-- Edited by Bob Adams on Sunday 9th of September 2012 10:05:45 PM

begazzz · Sportsman

After an exchange of opinions with a Horse rider today it got me thinking about the law?

We were out today and on a road inbetween tracks we caught up with a horse and rider and stopped about 50ft behind and switched off just in time for her to turn round and shout STOP! it was down hill so just followed for a bit untill we passed two places were she could have pulled over as it was quite narrow. Then a car came the other way and she waved them back so they had to reverse about 500 yrds!. in the end we just coasted passed after about ten mins (engine off) and asked her why she didnt pull over? I was shocked at the reply from a woman of her age.... I'll do what the f**k I like, Im local and my horse hates vehicles!!! to which I must amit i lost it and replied so the f**k am I, dont be a selfish B***h and if you cant control your f ing mental horse then you ride it round a field all day or get a better one!!

Started our engines and buggered off leaving her dealing with her mental horse looking like it was going to kick the hell out of anyone who got near. Im not proud of my reply but getting really Peed off with some people!

anyway if a horse goes mental (even though they all are anyway) who is to blame?? surely they should have to prove they are just a bit mental in a test if they want to go on the road. we do!

(my folks have had horses for 25 yrs and any comments about training etc will fall on deaf ears. they are all mental) :)

cheers

delvey91 · Devon's Best

Met about 6 horses today out east devon everyone was freindly. What i normally do is if i come face to face with a horse i will switch of engines and allow them to pass, but if coming up behind leave it running as the sudden stop of the engine can cause them some alarm!. whereas if you leave it running they will try and turn round to see what it is anyway leaving a safe opportunity to pass.

I think the lady you encountered may just of been abit moody haha. Im not too sure on the legality front. I chapo i know got his door kicked in by a horse on a country lane. woman on horse just rode off saying "its just one of those things" he turned round to try and chase her but she had done one up a field so he was left to foot of hoof the bill for a new door!

begazzz · Sportsman

yea most are ok and we always switch off and alow them to pass but this one was a bit special but as we were following it was a bit tricky. but as we were on the road i think she taking the P.

russell11031967 · Devon's Best

I hope most would agree that I'm quiet a likable chap and am willing to get on with anyone and I think that everyone should be able to enjoy the lanes as long as they do it sensibly but if there is one sort of person that i would fall out with it would be horse riders don't get me wrong just like all groups of users most of them are fine but there is always a few T*****s and for some reason some horse riders think they are above us all disbelief they certainly should be made to have insurance and pass a test of road suitability if not then ride it in a field furious SORRY RANT OVER

jt · Powermonger!!

Never had an issue with a horse (thankfully) but sounds like you had a bad one - or rider at least hmm

Dog walkers however.... furious

wackyracer · Powermonger!!

Advice on smart driving site Here

begazzz · Sportsman

yea i agree with the principle that they have been riding nutting mamimals for yonks but i still think they should do a spook test for horses! BOOOOH! ZZZZING NING NINNNNNNNG NING BANG!

And the owner has to be on the horse during the test.

jt · Powermonger!!

I have found the answer - Horse ear plugs biggrin

wrighty · Novice

As a biker and a professional equestrian for 30 years i read these posts with interest. You will find most riders really apreciate bikers slowing down and killing their engines, so as not to create a difficult / dangerous situation for both parties. Its not until you see a horse throw a panic wobbly that you realise that anything within a large area around that horse is in serious danger. A horses natural instinct is to run away from danger (flight}, when they are not aloud to, the energy and panic builds up and normally the horse will go upward, backwards or normally it goes sideways. The horse by this time will normally be running on adrenalin, not thinking whst it is doing. Any contact with an object such as a car or bike will normally result in lashing out at it . The rider will not normally be in control at this point. There will be no awareness by the horse of its pain or extent of any injury to itself or anyone or thing around it. Some riders are rude to anyone, its sometimes because they are incompetant and nervous and suddenly realise the danger they are in and cant deal with it. Hense they may take the middle of the track and not let you pass until they are completely safe. Some bikes are fairly noisy and the horse will start getting wound up a long time before the biker comes across them, hense riders that are a bit stressed. Having been swiped by a rover a few years ago i became aware of laws regarding horses and motor vehicals. Basically, these are as pointed out, very old laws are sympathetic towards horses. In a nutshell, the horse has the right of way. Even if you have pulled out very wide and slow and the horse spooks and comes into contact with you, you may well be held responsible. If the rider or horse is hurt, however it happens, you may well be held responsible and you may end up going to court with a claim against you. ( the horse i lost was 25k worth, may i point out the guy was doing 60mph round a blind corner when he hit me ) There are many people out riding horses that shouldnt be, just like car drivers on the roads. BUT watch out for youselves and your own interests guys and try not to let a 2 minute lack off patience spoil a good ride out , trash ya bike or worse. I have always made a point of stopping and chatting to TRF guys when on various horses, partly to educate the horses and also because i love bikes. Am looking to get another soon to get out green laning on and join you lot.

gaschef · Devon's Best

Having spent most of my appenticship nailing bits of metal to horses feet, I can tell you with authority they are all mindless eating machines and the majority should be turned into salami. However with most animals its the owners that are most at fault and if there was a driving test for taking the things on the road most owners would fail

However as far as I can remember the law changed in the 1980's and animals including pedestrians no longer have automatic right of way on the road and the owners are responsible under civil law for any damage that they cause. I think the only animal that is exempt is a cat

What I would point out is even the smallest of the most idiotic of the four legged mindless eating machines can deliver a lethal kick as can be seen from the accident statistics amongst farriers two or three are killed or seriously injured each year, give them a wide berth when overtaking

As for the owners well, I myself would like to see KIng James 1st solution to witches applied

wrighty · Novice

bob, am i correct in thinking that the case your referring to involved loose horses escaped from a field horses and
not being ridden by a rider?

Bob Adams · Clubman A

wrighty wrote:
bob, am i correct in thinking that the case your referring to involved loose horses escaped from a field horses and
not being ridden by a rider?

Yes, thats the one. On the Torquay to Exeter road.

What makes me think that if it was being ridden at the time, the result would have been the same, is that the dog was attended and the same law was, I believe, applied.

RichT4 · Champion

Ah, okay - for the record I totally agree. Horse riders should be insured.

I also agree that if they damage anything they would be held liable, after a civil suit though.

Your post infers that it is a legal requirement to have public liability insurance when it actually isn't, but should be.

So many casual horse riders don't bother! If you get hurt by a horse rider out on the lanes (or tarmac highways) you are probably going to have to envoke your un-insured losses legal cover to persue the horse rider. If they have a house (and house insurance) you may be able to cliam against that, otherwise you might end up recieving £10 a month for the rest of thier life.

doug9270 wrote:

With regard to the law all horse riders should be insured again public liability as the owner is responsible for the control of there horse.

-- Edited by RichT4 on Monday 10th of September 2012 10:30:23 AM

doug9270 · Powermonger!!

With regard to the law all horse riders should be insured again public liability as the owner is responsible for the control of there horse.

That is my opinion Rich, a horse cannot be held responsible for its actions, it is the owners responsibilty to ensure that they have control of their horse so they will be liable and yes a civil litigaton would be raised to recover any monies owing.
Its the same instance with having a vehicle accident, if the other driver is not insured and it is deemed to be the other parties fault then you will have to bring a civil litigation costing you more money unless the court finds you in favour.

-- Edited by doug9270 on Monday 10th of September 2012 10:54:22 AM

RichT4 · Champion

The good thing about 'around here' is that if I met a very snotty rider I could probably find out who he or she was. Horses have a very small riding radius from their base so it wouldn't take too long to locate their stable & thus owner/rider. This would only need doing of a rider had caused damage & left the scene.

I think all horse riders (who use the highways) should be registered, insured and wear an ID number on there back to identify them, something like a car/motorcycle registration plate would do.

doug9270 · Powermonger!!

Dom, in my experience and seeing my partner has a horse i agree with your strong reply to this horse rider. Horses if trained well are normally no problem and i have encountered my fair share over the years whilst out riding the lanes. If you ever go to a horse trial you will be amazed at the control the riders have and the high standard the horses are trained so there is no excuse for bad horsemanship and if a horse/rider combination does not work then it should not be ridden on the road fully until it is trained properly. My partner has been training her horse now to cope with traffic as in a previous life it just horse trekked around Exmoor so it did not come into contact with much traffic. With regard to the law all horse riders should be insured again public liability as the owner is responsible for the control of there horse.

RichT4 · Champion

doug9270 wrote:
With regard to the law all horse riders should be insured again public liability

Is this a law or just your opinion Doug?

Last time I spoke to my mrs about this she told me that it isn't a legal requirement to have any public liability insurance.

doug9270 · Powermonger!!

Common sense old man, if your horse damages something belonging to someone else expect a bill.

Quote from law firm:

All horse owners should carry some form of public liability insurance, which should be considered an essential. If your horse is insured, that policy will almost certainly provide such cover, the kind you would look to if someone were to make a claim against you alleging you had caused them damage/injury. An element of public liability cover may be provided with membership of a group, such as the Countryside Alliance, or via BHS Gold Membership, though the policy on which a claim like this would usually be made would be your own horse insurance.

devondan · Champion

Ah Rich the niceties of the English language ...... Doug said "should" be insured, had he said "must" it would have implied compulsion! should is more of a recommendation. http://www.englishgrammarsecrets.com/should/menu.php I'd add that all boats, jet skis and the like should also be insured!

Tim - have you been on the fighting cider again?!!

-- Edited by devondan on Monday 10th of September 2012 07:10:31 PM

RichT4 · Champion

I don't really see it Dan - in a statement where 'the Law' is stated it cannot be assumed to be giving a recommendation, The Law either is or isn't.
So Doug was stating that in order to comply with the law you should be insured - it is a must statement not an opinion.

The Muppet · Clubman B

If you go to the British Horse society web site there is a section on road users ... i have always been informed that who is ever is nearer to a large safe passing place should go forward or back which ever he case . if the horse is scared the rider should dismount . and lead to a safe place ........
There are horse riders who tend to think they own the road and will insist you pass them , i will in these cases reverse back to a safe place and tell then to learn the rules of the road set down by the B.H.S

devondan · Champion

RichT4 wrote:
I don't really see it Dan - in a statement where 'the Law' is stated it cannot be assumed to be giving a recommendation, The Law either is or isn't.
So Doug was stating that in order to comply with the law you should be insured - it is a must statement not an opinion.

I can understand the confusion but its all down to grammar!

doug9270 · Powermonger!!

As Dan said, its down to grammar. If you do not have a liability cover then expect to deal with the British legal system.

Harty · Devon's Best

All horses for courses really Rich/Dan

gaschef · Devon's Best

devondan wrote:
Ah Rich the niceties of the English language ...... Doug said "should" be insured, had he said "must" it would have implied compulsion! should is more of a recommendation. http://www.englishgrammarsecrets.com/should/menu.php I'd add that all boats, jet skis and the like should also be insured!

Tim - have you been on the fighting cider again?!!

-- Edited by devondan on Monday 10th of September 2012 07:10:31 PM

No just have some very strong views on the average horse owner. A well trained and controlled horse is a pleasure to watch, but thats only 1% of them, and I know some very good horsemen and women, the majority are awful

I remember when I did my heavy goods test in the early 80's we were instructed to show consideration for animals using the road but they were not to impede our progress as the law had recently been changed and they no longer had automatic right of way on the road. In fact someone slowing or stopping traffic due to animals could be charged with causing an obstruction

As for insurance and registration that should be mandatory for all road users

Brockstar71 · Clubman B

gaschef wrote:
As for insurance and registration that should be mandatory for all road users

Yep!!

Chris.

The Muppet · Clubman B

Most riders who have horses have insurance which always covers 3rd party liabilty and now by law have passports which cover registration

hampsterracing · Devon's Best

I can just imagine this thread on a rambliars forum ........... Just change horses for motorbikes. One or two numpties create a massive negative impact whatever your chosen pastime ...........

RichT4 · Champion

hampsterracing wrote:
I can just imagine this thread on a rambliars forum ........... Just change horses for motorbikes.

Only it is already established that motorcycles are legally required to be registered, have a number plate, have the pilot pass a test to prove competance and have insurance in order to legally use the highways. I can't honestly see that being a long thread with much counter discussion?

Your right about the numpties messing it up for everyone but even without the numpties my opinion about horse riders is still the same. It still feels a little like we're turning on fellow lane users though. biggrin Unite against the Ramble-liars!

My better half (avid horse rider) also agrees to some extent. My only worry is if it did suddenly became law then it would be un-policeable (eg hunting), and if it was to be enforced many riders would simply give up (maybe not a bad thing) but many horses would find themself at the glue factory.

-- Edited by RichT4 on Wednesday 12th of September 2012 07:17:44 AM

doug9270 · Powermonger!!

If you can afford to keep a horse you can afford insurance its not that expensive unless you are racing a thoroughbred worth hundreds of thousands.

wrighty · Novice

most pro riders stay off the lanes on the weekend, its mostly happy hackers.

begazzz · Sportsman

RichT4 wrote:
The good thing about 'around here' is that if I met a very snotty rider I could probably find out who he or she was. Horses have a very small riding radius from their base so it wouldn't take too long to locate their stable & thus owner/rider. This would only need doing of a rider had caused damage & left the scene.

I think all horse riders (who use the highways) should be registered, insured and wear an ID number on there back to identify them, something like a car/motorcycle registration plate would do.

I agree totally and investigations are underway :)

FBF · Clubman A

We have a women that has a nutso horse around here (Denbury) I was down the allotment (I know I get me coat and wellies). Was just about to jump over the gate as I couldn't be arsed to unlock it and noticed them just approaching on the road when she said could I wait as the horse was young and would probably spook, so I did.

Got in my pickup and knew they were up the road so went slow, Yellow transit came the other way and horse went it loony mode. Had the misfortune to meet it again end of the prison lane on the Husky, horse went into loony freak out bronco mode.

Now correct me if I am wrong but isn't that horse best gracing a few tins of pedigree chum rather than putting rider and public at risk? If the horse is that freaky is it ever likely to calm down.

Vast majority of horse riders are fine and horses well trained and from sound stock. I could probably ride my Husky flat out past one of the hunt horses and it wouldn't even bat an eyelid, and thats the difference between wannabes and real horse riders I guess. Only ever had a cross word years ago in Kingskerswell, snobby cow had a go at me saying I was going too fast, fast on a single track road ? I was doing about 30 mph. She gave me a right mouthfull so I told her she may want to reconsider riding her overstuffed Donkey on a back road which is used as a rat run at 8.30 in the morning. Next driver got the same mouthful.

The stupidity of some horse riders beggars belief.

snasher · Clubman B

Just seen this item of news on the BBC website.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-19861486

What was a hypothetical web thread just becam a reality for some poor sod. Hope all concerned OK.

Hoops · Elite

snasher wrote:
Just seen this item of news on the BBC website.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-19861486

What was a hypothetical web thread just becam a reality for some poor sod. Hope all concerned OK.

Was just going to post that up myself. Anyone we know? Hope everyone's OK.

RichT4 · Champion

Sorry but I had to laugh at the caption under the picture of hills - "The condition of the pony is not known"
Like that is the important message to be taken from that news article.

Vikings · Clubman A

"Now correct me if I am wrong but isn't that horse best gracing a few tins of pedigree chum rather than putting rider and public at risk?" classic. lol

doug9270 · Powermonger!!

If i thought for one minute that my partners horse was a liability it would be gone quick.

RichT4 · Champion

The article didn't state whether the pony had a rider or was a wild pony.

Big T · Expert

At 02:10? I doubt that would be any sort of 'Happy Hacker'!

Based on the timing, I'd guess it was a free-roaming animal, of which there are many hundreds on Dartmoor. None of which habitually wear hi-vis or carry lighting, and have a habit of not following the green cross code. This is one of the joys of living where we do.

I sincerely wish both rider and animal the best in their recovery, and I hope that this raises people's awareness of the ever-present possibility of animals in the road.

More locally I have had to stop for a mother roe deer and baby on Rockbeare straight in the middle of the night. This could easily have caught somebody out with disastrous results. Many years ago, my mother drove through a group of piglets on her Lambretta as they ran out of a hedge in front of her.

It is a real and unpredictable risk!

KronreifTrunkenpolzMattighofen · Devon's Best

Big T wrote:
At 02:10?
I sincerely wish both rider and animal the best in their recovery,
It is a real and unpredictable risk!

What ever the cause / fault, it's not a "just comparison" to the start of this thread.

Thoughts to all concerned.

But, when I grew up with my Italjet 50 & my DT50MX on St. Just moors, my sister & I swapped bikes for horses and rode together, mainly to teach the horses bike etiquette - On her insistence...... smile

Simmo · Expert

May be an idea to always carry a shot gun in case of rabid mental horses/deer/antelope/bison/wilderbeast/ramblers.