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Post Info TOPIC: Torque de-rating for grease thread?
RichT4


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Torque de-rating for grease thread?
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This is for the wheel bolts on my T4 van...

Somewhere along the way I sprayed all of my wheel bolts with copper grease to stop them being so tight to undo.

I now have a torque wrench (so no more guess work) and was going to put my rear wheels back on and realised I didn't have the torque value (which I do now - 160 to 180 nm).
I then read on a related post about the threads being dry and suddenly it stuck me what I'd done... I remembered a previous discussion I had with engineer, who told me that in general all nut/bolt torque values are for dry threads and should be de-rated for greased threads.

So, anyone know what the de-rating value is for copper grease or should I just break out the de-greaser and attempt to remove all the cooper grease?




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Pete


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Torque ratings are also intended for new threads so you will risk stripping threads if you do them up to the recommended values.

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Biff


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Quote -
So, anyone know what the de-rating value is for copper grease or should I just break out the de-greaser and attempt to remove all the cooper grease?

Not sure about the torque values, but I would clean the cooper grease off "just like that"

Now where's my coatno

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KronreifTrunkenpolzMattighofen


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160Nm? That is high.hmm

And you should know better than to grease wheel studs.no 



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Cubber


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This article refers to decreasing the torque setting by up to 65% for anitseize compound treated threads.

CLICKY THINGY

The link takes you to a car related forum. confuse

Martyn



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jt


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" I sprayed all of my wheel bolts with copper grease to stop them being so tight to undo"

 

And now your worried about Torque settings confuseno

 



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gaschef


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jt wrote:

" I sprayed all of my wheel bolts with copper grease to stop them being so tight to undo"

 

And now your worried about Torque settings confuseno

 

 Given that the definition of torque is "strength of arm times length of spanner"  or as on old mechanic once told me do it up til it goes loose and then back half a turn.  There is sufficient misinformation out there to confuse any instructions.  If the book says dry I would clean them off, however how long have you been running with them with copper slip, If you have had no problems why not check with the torque wrench the setting required to undo the bolts at present and them make a decision 



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doug9270


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RichT4 wrote:

what..., leave the wheels off confuse

 

wink

 So, lets analyse that then 'what happens if the wheels come off the rails' ?



-- Edited by doug9270 on Tuesday 21st of May 2013 01:41:13 PM

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RichT4


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KronreifTrunkenpolzMattighofen wrote:

160Nm? That is high.hmm

And you should know better than to grease wheel studs.no 

 It sure is high, and some owners manuals put it as high as 180NM - and that is for steel or alloy wheels.



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RichT4


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jt wrote:

" I sprayed all of my wheel bolts with copper grease to stop them being so tight to undo"

 

And now your worried about Torque settings confuseno

 

That's right, the tightening force required to do the bolts up...biggrin

 

...and why use grease on these bolts - because they seize!

Admittedly it was far worse when I was using the original VW radius head bolts on the steel wheels. They tended to bite into the wheel hard and then rust a little as well. I literally had to jump on the wheel wrench and risked rounding off the head of every bolt. Other owners have said they use a 'X' type lug wrench, and set it up an axle stand to rest the rear and then stamp on it. Those bolts go on tight then rust in place and can be impossible to do by the road side.

That's why I used grease on the threads but also I did not have a torque wrench at the time so was just going by feel. Now I have the tool, and have discovered how tight they have to be I'm worried about doing it to the full torque.

 



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RichT4


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gaschef wrote:

however how long have you been running with them with copper slip, If you have had no problems why not check with the torque wrench the setting required to undo the bolts at present and them make a decision 

 Several years and a few thousand miles - no issues. When I recently took the rear wheels off the bolts were still sufficiently tight.



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grouty


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Well ..... if it ain't broke rich. Why fix it.
If your vehicle checks are good then you'd be checking them maybe once a year biggrin



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RichT4


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I'm not with you grouty... what are you suggesting?

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doug9270


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Leave it alone nononono



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RichT4


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what..., leave the wheels off confuse

 

wink



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Cubber


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Why not use your bike instead?? confuse

It's OK - I've got my coat on and ........

biggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrin

Martyn



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RichT4


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Not sure why we're talking about rails, or what that has to do with my wheel bolts.

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doug9270


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I was pulling yer leg biggrinbiggrin



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gaschef


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Is the price of fish going up?



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jt


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Stick some more grease on, whack em up - go and ride bike and stop stressing wink



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Kwaka Geoff


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How did I guess that a thread with that title would have been started by you? winksmile



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Wheely


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Does the same theory apply if you use thread-lock, as this will have a bearing on the thread lubrication and reduce it accordingly. Yet manuals often refer to threadlocking a bolt and then giving it the same torque setting as an equivilant 'bare' thread.

A slightly interesting thread........... obviously started by Rich!!



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Wheely


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Got me looking further now. Thinking well if the torque is based on friction & tightness then torque settings must be different for different bolt/thread materials....... the plot thickens.

Found a torque chart here which does refer to different bolt materials and different torque settings for them. Near the end it also states "when using anti-seize, reduce lubed chart reading by 20% to properly torque".

I'd go with that over the 'upto 65%' link.

http://www.imperialsupplies.com/pdf/A_FastenerTorqueCharts.pdf

Right, enough already - I'm off to slacken off all the bolts on my KTM which are now all classified as over-tight. Hope someone follows me next rideout to pick up the pieces that drop off confuse



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doug9270


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Wheely wrote:

 

Right, enough already - I'm off to slacken off all the bolts on my KTM which are now all classified as over-tight. Hope someone follows me next rideout to pick up the pieces that drop off confuse

 You orange riders do leave yourself open for more abuse, we always follow the orange brigade to collect parts which fall off which has nothing to do with tread lock or torque charts biggrinbiggrinbiggrin



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RichT4


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Well, to all the helpers on this thread - I thank you!

To Wheely - don't try to fight it, you too are a nerd, EMBRACE IT!

To the others here ( and you know who you are), move along, nothing to see here, go ride your bike and leave the rest of us to have a sensible technical conversation.  



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