Devon TRF Group Forum

I would stay with the recommended ,we had a free ride break down Saturday due too melting its own wiring , check the forums im sure there's something on there about this

Please read, taken from another website:

I'm not that educated about it either, but I might have some answers. I mostly looked into using lithium batteries because my hobby is solar power. I currently have enough lead-acid batteries and solar panels to run my washing machine twice a week off solar, which is putting a serious dent in my electric bill. And the setup I have didn't cost that much! But I had to figure out basic electronics as I went along. Now I'm trying to get some engineers to walk me through putting my product together and getting it on the market: wat.asiaeast.org Lead-acid batteries work really well because they've been around forever and everyone has most of the problems worked out. But like you know, they are heavy and take up room and have other problems. It hasn't happened yet, but I'm pretty sure everyone will be using lithium batteries some day in the future, just like you are suggesting. Imagine plugging something the size of the backup battery on your laptop into your motorcycle and then recharging it again overnight. That approach might work, but I don't think you can recharge a lithium battery from the motorcycle engine directly. The problem with lithium on a motorcycle is this: Lithium batteries charge in two stages. First, a microprocesor applies a predetermined current and then raise the voltage until the maximum voltage required is reached. At this stage, if you disconnect your battery, it will appear to be full. But in fact, the battery inside really isnt. During the second stage, current continues to flow into the lithium battery until it drops to 0. This usually means theres no more room in your battery for electricity. Microprocessors for lithium batteries are programmed to assume you are going to leave the battery charging until it is full. But, if you are recharging the battery on a motorcycle, the flow of current could stop simply because you switched the engine off. This would lead the microprocessor to think that the battery was full, when in fact it wasn't. Because it tracks where the battery is at in the charging stage, if you unplug it before you finish charging, the chip can lose track of where in the process you were. At this point, you will need to reestablish where in the charging process you were. That's why I suggest unplugging the battery from the bike every time you are done and recharging it from the wall. This will reset the parameters inside the microprocessor again. After that, things should remain stable. With my ipod, for example, I plug it into a solar panel. When the sun goes behind a cloud, the flow of energy drops to 0 and the ipod thinks the battery is full. It will even say "Charged" on the display. When I unplug it from the solar panel, the lithium battery is still empty!! That's why I have to recharge my lithium battery from lead-acid batteries or recharge on a day when there's no clouds in the sky. So on your motorcycle, unless you can reprogram the chip somehow, everytime the battery looks low, the alternator will start to pump out juice, right? But if you turned the engine off while it was recharging, the microprocessor would think the battery was full. Then, when you turned it on again, the microprocessor would never send out the single to the alternator to start pumping again. Eventually you'd have a dead battery. Like I said, I'm not educated about this. However, my experiments with lithium tells me I'm pretty close to correct. Probably best to recharge the lithium independently of the engine. Also, can you run a lithium battery for lights and radio, etc. and a smaller lead-acid battery for starting?

Reference www.physicsforums.com/threads/replacing-a-lead-acid-12-volt-battery-with-a-lithium-ion-polymer-battery.294828/

What about garage fires, are these batteries partial to houses only then ?  Sorry mate could not resist it.

Tribey wrote:

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But, as your bike is such a good starter, you probably won't need a charger or jump leads.

 

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 Kiss of death 

 

PS sent you a pm.

Just to clarify, "Also is it OK to use an ordinary battery when jump starting" bit. The freeride is E-start only so no kicker. So was thinking about taking jump leads when riding to jump start from another bike.

Any thoughts?

Albert wrote:

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Has your battery actually run flat or is this just to get properly equipped in case?

since lithium batteries don't loose any significant amount of charge if you sit them for extended periods means you should never really have to charge it other than with the bike.

In the event that you manage to run it flat while out riding im sure a bump start will be sufficient?

Ive had a lithium battery in my DR350 for over a year now and its never missed a beat, i fitted a kickstart "just in case" at the same time but the lithium battery seems far superior to the lead acids in every way, cranks the starter for longer than a lead acid ever did and after months of sitting in the garage with no maintenance

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Thanks for the reply Albert. The battery is ok just thinking ahead in case I have a problem. Just curious did you have to modify the alternator on your Dr350 to charge the Lithium battery?

I didn't modify the electrical system at all, just popped in the battery. It was an aftermarket motorbike specific battery (but not sold specifically for my bike). I got it from eBay, sent over from Italy for about £75, not bad considering i needed one anyway and its 2kg lighter as well as working better!

I know you are recommended to use a lithium ion specific charger on these batteries, but honestly it didn't occur to me that my bikes charging system might not be suitable.

As far as lithium ion bats go, the only possible negative i know of is that they don't put out their full power if they get too cold (sub zero), but you can remedy this by "priming" the battery by running just the headlight for a bit. It seems a bit counter intuitive if you are dealing with a weak battery situation, but drawing from the battery generates a little heat and gets it up to working temperature.

Just to confuse things, there are at least 2 types of lithium battery you find for motorcycles, lithium ion, and lithium iron ones made by shorai and possibly others. I believe the lithium iron ones are more fussy about how they receive a charge.

deci wrote:

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As a matter of interest, which Freeride did you get Nick ?

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 Hi David,

I bought the two smoker. 2015 model on a 2014 plate.

I now have a Shorai Lithium Iron LFX09L2-BS12   LiFEPO4 battery fitted in my 250 Freeride, which replaced the standard fit low capacity lead acid battery. The Lithium batteries behave differently to lead acid batteries and should be treated differently too.

According to the manufacturer, if the bike doesn't have any static draw (clock, alarm or computer) on the battery, it should only need a maintenance charge once a year.

In relation to the charging they advise  '' you may NOT use a charger/tender if it has an automatic "desulfation mode", which cannot be turned off.  Lead acid charger/tenders can be used for regular maintenance charging and then be disconnected after the battery is fully charged.  DO NOT leave the lead acid charger connected to store the battery, because most will NOT maintain the proper voltage for lithium batteries.  IMPORTANT- if the LFX battery is deeply discharged below 12.86V a lead acid charger/tender should not be used to recover the battery ''  They also recommend if the vehicle is to be stored for long periods of time, the battery can be kept in the fridge! or if using a charger in 'store' mode, then disconnect the charger 1 hour before use and then put the charger into normal charge mode.

I have a CTEK XS Lithium LiFEPO4 charger for the maintenance charge.

 In relation to the on bike charging, Shorai batteries require a charging system output of 13.1 Volts or higher at idle.

 As the battery manufacturer suggest, my battery does not produce full power on first press of the starter button.  They apparently sit sort of dormant and need a bit of waking up before they release their full power. They suggest that before trying to start the bike, switching the lights or heated grips on for between 30 seconds and 2 minutes to wake the battery before pressing the starter. This is OK for some bikes, but my lights won't switch on until the engine is running, so I cannot do this. I though maybe switching the indicators on would help, but I have fitted LED indicators so the current drawn is too low to wake the battery, and sounding the horn for a couple of minutes continuously won't please my neighbours. After several weeks of not riding the bike, I end up just pressing the starter a couple of times, waiting a few seconds between each try, and on each press you can feel the battery releasing more power than the last, before it actually starts the bike. Once started, the battery provides full power every subsequent press.

 

 I have the CTEK comfort indicator lead attached to the bike so I am always able to see the state of the batterys charge, I think TTR had a similar type of light fitted to one of his bikes, very handy. 

 

KTM-UK recommend the Optimate Lithium charger for reasons as stated above - a normal charger may have a desulfation mode (pulses) which can damage a lithium battery.

The lithium batteries fitted to KTMs and Husky MX bikes have an "official" start process for when they are cold - press the starter for 5 seconds, wait 30 seconds, repeat. It may take a couple of goes but the battery warms up internally during the 30 second pause and will deliver a much higher current.

Once started from cold this process is not needed ie hit the button and go.

-- Edited by thedktor on Thursday 22nd of October 2015 06:33:54 AM

Good thread this and one I'd mentally filed away as interesting but not one directly concerning me... until I received an e-mail from a friend in Dublin telling me about the new battery he'd fitted to his KTM990 that is 1/5th the weight of the original.

We had an exchange on this and a) it is Li-ion, b) he wasn't aware his Optimate would bu99er it up and c) nor was he aware it would be different in use either. Now he's a bit concerned his bike's charging system may either be ineffective or wreck the battery and, as Li-ions go from good to flat in a heartbeat, may strand him by the roadside. This is a concern for me too as we tour together and have been to some fairly remote places where a dead KTM990 would not be good.

Reading this thread I'm getting the impression Li-ions on KTMs are aimed at constant loss competition machines which are run infrequently and a year between (off-bike) charging is possible and no hindrance. Fitting one to a big road bike with a clock and alarm but no kick start may be another matter altogether.

Cheers,
John

John Leah wrote:

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Reading this thread I'm getting the impression Li-ions on KTMs are aimed at constant loss competition machines which are run infrequently and a year between (off-bike) charging is possible and no hindrance. Fitting one to a big road bike with a clock and alarm but no kick start may be another matter altogether.

Cheers,
John

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Difficult to say about the suitability for a big road bike but no, I'd say not aiming particularly at total loss machines.

Definitely aimed at competition machines due to high price tag. One for my bike is about £145 whereas a Lead Acid eqiv is about £30. I wouldn't even notice the weight saving so why pay the extra then have to worry about not upsetting it.

If the clock & alarm on your mates bike was going to be an issues it would have probably shown itself by now - how long has it been on?

I'd say if it's been a while he is obviously using the bike often enough, and the charging circuit must be ok as it is keeping the battery topped up.

It's just a shame they don't make smart chargers for these batteries (or do they). For my newer drill the battery has a circuit in it that talks to both the power tools & the charger to protect itself & report on it's condition. In hobby circles they strap the raw cells to a fancy hobby charger which can perform many tests to give you a feel of the health of each cell and then charge them to perfection. It's only when you slap a bunch of cells in a battery box shape and fit them to a charging system not designed for them that you have trust the manufacturer has done the relevant testing.

So.. I'd say if the battery was sold for that bike, and they are one of the reputable manufacturers, then you have to trust it's suitable.

Nick, we do a range of chargers for our L-Ion batteries, and they are physically the same as all the others, but we adjust the software as these batteries like a big powerful charge, but the cells need to be able to tell the charger to back off whilst they level them selves out (nearest cell gets most of the charge blast, so needs time to stabalise), so apart from having a higher charge voltage, there tends to be a need for dedicated charge charataristics.
But then, our Li-Ion batteries are 12v320amp, or 24v160a, not sure if yours has its own ECU style brains or not?

Ah its confusing because a lithium iron is a 'type " of lithium ion battery. The " ion" is the process, the "iron" refers to the cathode material iron phosphate thingymagig

:)

Thanks for that Ray I will have a look, I was told by another owner that you have to take the suspension spring out in order to remove the battery is this right?